CLEVELAND, Ohio — It’s time for this week’s episode of the Terry’s Talkin’ podcast, with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell.
We start with the Browns, their search for a veteran quarterback, and some things we think about the No. 2 pick in the 2025 NFL Draft.
We also talk Cavs, and consider a listener question about whether the Mavericks' Luka Doncic trade bears any resemblance to the Indians' legendary trade of Rocky Colavito.
We also look at the Guardians, and how they might build the top of their batting order without Josh Naylor.
Do you have any questions or comments for the podcast? Send your thoughts and questions in via email to us at sports@cleveland.com and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line, and we’ll try to feature it on an upcoming episode.
Also, we are seeking your Cleveland opening day baseball memories; and if you have any memories of Frank Robinson’s debut as Cleveland’s manager 50 years ago next month. Send those stories to sports@cleveland.com, and put “Terry’s Talkin'” in the subject line. We’ll read some of the emails on upcoming podcasts;
Highlights:
- The Browns QB soap opera continues;
- A listener asks: Should the Browns trade away a player for a QB with some upside on another roster?
- What Terry’s been thinking about Kenny Pickett;
- How should Browns fans feel about Myles Garrett after his record-breaking extension?
- A stat that might cool the Browns on Mississippi’s Jaxson Dart;
- Did we learn anything about the Cavs in Sunday’s loss to Orlando?
- A listener asks about comparisons between the Dallas Mavericks trading Luca Doncic and the Indians dealing Rocky Colavito back in the day.
- The impressive Akron Zips men’s basketball team, heading to Seattle to play Arizona;
- Why Terry is worried about the Guardians lineup
- Should José Ramírez bat No. 2 in the lineup, or not?
- Terry has a new favorite pitcher in the Guardians farm system;
- Reminder: On March 26, Terry will be at the Walls of Books story at Parmatown Mall at 6 p.m. He’ll speak and sign books;
- Two listeners write in to tell us about a new book about late Orioles manager Earl Weaver: “The Last Manager – How Earl Weaver Tricked, Tormented, and Reinvented Baseball," by John W. Miller. Terry covered Weaver as a young reporter and has some tales to tell, including one about luggage.
Here’s the podcast for this week:
If the player above doesn’t work, you can listen to this week’s podcast here.
If you have a question or a topic you’d like to see included on the podcast, email it to sports@cleveland.com, and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
You can find previous podcasts below. The transcript below was generated by a computer, and as such it contains many spelling and grammar errors.
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David Campbell (01:46.018)
Hey, we’re back for another edition of the Terry’s Talking Podcast. I’m your host David Campbell. Terry Pluto is joining me as he does every week. How you doing, Terry?
Terry Pluto (01:54.99)
I’m doing alright.
David Campbell (01:56.514)
I was thinking you’ve had some really good ideas for emails from listeners, stories and different things and where you are coming up on Guardian’s opening day. And I thought it would be really cool to have people write in with their favorite opening day memory, stories about that. also, and this can be included or separately, but it is the 50th anniversary this opening day, April 8th of Frank Robinson debuting as the Cleveland manager.
Terry Pluto (02:02.027)
Okay.
David Campbell (02:24.13)
Man, 50 years ago, it’s hard to believe. And he hit a home run in his opening game as manager. So anyway, I thought we would see if he... I don’t. Who was it? Really? All right.
Terry Pluto (02:26.072)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, do you know who was pitching? Doc Medich. Do you know where he batted in the lineup? This is, I’m going a little bit on the limb now.
think it was second. In fact, you could probably check it, but now, cause he would have made out his own lineup.
David Campbell (02:43.478)
Really? Yeah, I was just guessing.
Yeah, but it’s opening day is such a special day in Cleveland. People go down for the home opener, they make a day of it. And yeah, we’ve got another one coming up and it’s a special one. So hit us with any stories you have, anecdotes, memorable moments, email those to sports at cleveland.com and just put Terry’s talking in the subject line. We’ll try and include some of those. Then we’ve got a couple of weeks here till opening day down at the ballpark at Progressive Field. So, all right.
Terry Pluto (02:52.77)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (03:02.647)
Hmm.
David Campbell (03:16.738)
I thought we’d start with the Browns today, Terry. How do you feel about that with the quarterbacks and everything?
Terry Pluto (03:16.972)
Okay.
Well, you want to play quarterback?
David Campbell (03:23.946)
I, they might be stuck with me pretty soon the way things are going.
Terry Pluto (03:27.798)
Well, they might be stuck with Kenny Pickett is really how things are going. But yeah, go ahead. You lead off with that.
David Campbell (03:35.406)
I keep thinking of the old soap opera beginning, like Sands Through the Hourglass. It’s like Pigskins Through the Fingers of Corey Coleman. These are the quarterbacks of our lives. And a lot of drama going on. let’s just do a quick reset here. Aaron Rodgers is kind of pondering the Giants at this point, and apparently the Steelers. So he’s kind of, I think the big domino waiting to fall. Russell Wilson has
Terry Pluto (03:43.158)
Uh-huh.
Terry Pluto (03:47.564)
Yeah. Right.
David Campbell (04:03.662)
visited the Browns and the Giants and who knows the Steelers might have him back too depending on how things go. Jameis Winston is going to be visiting the Giants and Kirk Cousins the Falcons have picked up his 10 million dollar roster bonus and it’s it seems to be the prevailing theory right now that he’s going to stay with the Falcons. So the Browns are in a little bit of a holding pattern here kind of waiting for some of this soap opera to play itself out. How are you feeling about where they stand Terry? I know you’ve been thinking about Kenny Pickett too but
Terry Pluto (04:08.119)
Yeah.
David Campbell (04:33.816)
There’s going to be another veteran in the mix here. How are you feeling about where they’re at right now?
Terry Pluto (04:34.134)
Yeah. Well, let’s hope that let’s hope there is, and it’s not just some sort of faceless, you know, Bailey’s Zappi type because Bailey Zappi is already signed with the Chiefs, I believe. You know, on the same day, Miles Gar, Garrett signed with Cleveland, they lost Bailey Zappi.
David Campbell (04:53.03)
Terry Pluto (04:55.694)
I don’t know why that came to me, but you get sort of, you know, quarterback delirium when you talk about the Browns. I do like how Hayward from the Steelers, uh, texted or I guess on a podcast says something like, I don’t want to hear anything about going into the dark or whatever. Rodgers, either you want to be a stealer you don’t want to be a stealer. There’s no skin off my back either way.
David Campbell (05:21.102)
Spoken like a true future Hall of Famer. Cameron Hayward, yeah. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (05:24.128)
Yeah, and it’s the or yeah, it’s like, you so that’s, that’s a interesting thing of, you know, people waiting on, I mean, Aaron Rodgers to the Giants to me just sounds so perfect.
He gets to do New York again. You know, New York, that’s all. It’s just the soap opera, all that stuff. I’m so glad. I hope the Browns are not lurking somewhere in the background to try and bring him in because that’s not what you need. And, you know, I know that I wrote a thing for over the weekend about how the Browns have led the league in turnover the last two years. And that is a big concern. was.
David Campbell (05:38.882)
Because.
Terry Pluto (06:08.386)
got some information from pretty high up about that. And it’s part of the reason they’re just not real wild about Flacco. Now, things to consider though, when you look at interceptions and turnovers is also, does that quarterback also produce touchdowns? See, there’s two sides to this thing. Like while Flacco threw eight interceptions in his five games here,
He also threw 13 touchdowns.
Now, you you hate to see the ball and he could see when Flacco went sideways in a playoff game, you know, where do you have three or two, two pick sixes in a row or whatever that was. Uh, so you know, you are walking the dangerous line there, but in some cases, um, you still have to have a guy that can find a way to get the ball in the end. So, Hey, the Sean Watson didn’t throw that many interceptions here. He also didn’t throw very many touchdowns.
David Campbell (07:08.27)
I mean, it’s hard to throw interceptions when you’re not sending the ball up the field. And he, he, he checked down an awful lot. think we talked about that in a previous podcast. so if the Browns it is, it’s like a game of dominoes here, right? The Aaron Rodgers domino is going to fall and then probably Russell Wilson. And it’s, it’s kind of a domino thing. And the Browns are kind of waiting. There’s so many variables too, terms, not just the money, but like some guys want a chance to start and be the permanent starter. And some guys don’t care about that. that’s why it’s taking so long.
Terry Pluto (07:12.12)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (07:16.034)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (07:30.157)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (07:39.63)
I would think so. I the Brawns don’t want to spend any money on this thing. I think that’s the reason they shot out and brought in Pickett right away. And they thought if it worse comes to worse, we’ll have Pickett. Now Pickett’s stats are interesting because he started 25 games. He’s thrown, I believe, only 14 interceptions, which is not that bad. But in those 25 games, he’s only thrown 15 touchdown passes. Now I think he has. Doesn’t he have like four come from behind wins or something like that with the Steelers?
David Campbell (08:07.596)
Yeah, that sounds right.
Terry Pluto (08:07.79)
I believe it’s four or five. Yeah. Which is pretty good in, um, a 25, uh, start thing. think he’s 15 and 10. Maybe they think they can, um, put him in Stefanski’s offense and get more out of them. I mean, he was stuck with Matt Canada call in place for a while and some other things. I mean, I was never particularly enamored with Pickett, but, um, I, I really believe that they want.
shot out to get him right away that if worse, you know, if they can’t find somebody else to like, they’ll just start with picket.
David Campbell (08:45.112)
Well, we’ll see how it falls out. I think we’re going to have an answer by next week, right? By next week’s podcast. should know. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (08:50.998)
I give up on this. I mean, maybe they’ll all go into the dark. Like, know, Aaron Rodgers. I don’t know. I heard the Browns visit with Russell Wilson went fairly well, but it wasn’t like they felt they had to tackle him before he went out the door. And frankly, the Giants must have felt the same way because the Browns made more sense for Wilson than the Giants, assuming the Giants are still trying to get Aaron Rodgers.
I believe the Giants are having James Winston in there now. I you’re just tearing the same names, two of whom cycled through Cleveland the last two years with Flacco. I think the Giants also talked to Flacco. I don’t have a real strong opinion on those guys. What do you think of Russell Wilson?
David Campbell (09:43.672)
I think he wants to be a starter for another year or two. And I don’t know that that’s the reason I don’t think it necessarily works here because there’s going to be a number two draft pick who’s going to be a quarterback. if Mike, my gut says should do her Sanders right now, right? Like I know ward is the other option. but I, I could totally see Sanders here and I don’t think Russell Wilson is going to want to be taken the field every Sunday and people chanting for the number two draft pick every week. I don’t think that’s what he wants.
Terry Pluto (09:45.901)
Yep.
David Campbell (10:12.972)
I think he wants to go somewhere. The Giants would make more sense for him because he, he’d be the guy and there’s nobody kind of pushing him from behind. And I do think there’d be a better fit in terms of what he wants, but in terms of what the Browns want, I think it’d be fine. I just don’t think it’d be a good fit for him in terms of the pressure from behind.
Terry Pluto (10:16.11)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (10:32.234)
Yeah. Cause you would be looking at, you got Russell Wilson, he wants to start and picket Corley wants to start because he’s still young, trying to establish himself. And then if you do take one of the top two quarterbacks, he thinks he should start. And that probably is not going to be a great dynamic in that room. And that’s why they might end up getting a much lesser veteran. I’d have to look at kind of the third list of, you know, dropping down on that list kind of guys.
and see if there’s somebody there that they would cycle into and just start with picket.
David Campbell (11:07.992)
Alright, did you have anything else on Pickett you wanted to get into? I know you’ve been kind of pondering him a lot. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (11:11.304)
No, just that I wanted to make the point about, yes, interceptions are a problem, but so are lack of touchdown passes.
David Campbell (11:24.76)
All right, so I wanted to talk about Miles Garrett, Terry. good, yeah.
Terry Pluto (11:25.574)
And, and, and, and before we go there and you think about what happened with Russell Wilson in Pittsburgh, you know, he started fast. think he was five and one or something like that as a starter. And then ended up being six and five and he couldn’t get the ball in the end zone at the end. He could not get now the stewards. They didn’t have a ton of weapons, but you know, Pickens is a pretty good player and, and,
Who was the running back from Alabama? The hot and the nausea Harris. Yeah. you know, so it wasn’t like they were devoid of talent. I always kind of liked Russell Wilson, you know, for all those years in Seattle, because he was mobile without, putting his body at risk. And he, you know, threw a fair amount of touchdown passes, not that many interceptions and won a ton of games. so yeah.
David Campbell (11:55.48)
Nagy Harris.
David Campbell (12:19.63)
I want to say about the Steelers real quick, Terry. So Ben Roethlisberger was there forever. At one time he was the winningest all-time quarterback in the Brown Stadium and all that. But the Steelers, they’re in danger of having their own quarterback jersey here with a bunch of names on it because they don’t have anybody right now. There’s no kind of young star quarterback. They’re going to have to draft one, but they don’t have a pick high enough where they could get a bonafide.
Terry Pluto (12:24.429)
Yep.
Terry Pluto (12:30.573)
No.
Terry Pluto (12:36.568)
Yep.
David Campbell (12:47.65)
future face of the franchise type of guy necessarily. So if they’re going to draft the quarterback, and I’m guessing they will fairly high in this draft, they got to get it right. And they got to hope they hit a home run with it because there’s not lot of talent in that quarterback room right now, much less, not a lot of people either.
Terry Pluto (13:02.102)
Well, that’s why they signed Mason Rudolph to two-year contract, because it’s almost like they’re Kenny Pickett. How about this? I didn’t realize this while I was looking it up. Jacobi Brissette, Roberta still, by the way, pining away for Jacobi, because this is why we looked it up. He, from Arizona, he got a two-year, $12 million deal, $8 million guaranteed.
David Campbell (13:06.689)
Right.
David Campbell (13:33.528)
Not
Terry Pluto (13:34.474)
No. And, you know, last year I think he had five starts and threw like three touchdown passes or something. but the point is how I, and I believe some of these guys will be looking at even deals like that and wondering, you know, why don’t I, why don’t I get something like that? If you’re Russell Wilson or, you know, perhaps some, some, don’t know what Aaron Rogers wants. I know the stewards don’t want them spending much time in the dark.
That’s, love that from A word. just, it was like, go ahead.
David Campbell (14:09.518)
I was just going to say, wanted to mention, so Aaron Rogers is going to ask for everything that he, that he, it’ll be a lot of money and an automatic starters job in the whole bit. So we’ll see how that goes. But I did want to mention, you were mentioning the quarterbacks and the. Interception and touchdowns and the ratio. I, I’d want to highlight Tim Bealick and our colleague had an interesting post this week.
Terry Pluto (14:14.19)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (14:32.106)
And he went and looked at fourth quarter quarterback ratings of the draftable guys from the last couple of years and why Jackson Dart might not be someone that the Browns would want to take a chance on with a high pick. it’s really interesting from Tim’s story. Jackson Dart, when it comes to fourth quarter quarterback ratings from this past season was 42nd in the country. Six touchdowns and four interceptions in the fourth quarter that ranked 47th. Cam Ward coming out this year ranked sixth in that category.
Terry Pluto (14:36.588)
Uh-huh.
Terry Pluto (14:52.6)
Really?
Ouch.
Terry Pluto (15:01.752)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (15:02.316)
Shadour Sanders ranked 32nd in that category in terms of fourth quarter quarterback, fourth quarter quarterback ratings. Jalen Millerow, man, I’m having a hard time today, Terry. Jalen Millerow from Alabama, 45th. And then he went back to last year’s draft and year before Jaden Daniels from Washington was first in the country in that category. And look what he did last season. Bo Nix going to Denver, 15th in that category.
Terry Pluto (15:10.146)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (15:24.814)
Hmm.
Terry Pluto (15:31.374)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (15:31.52)
in the fourth quarter quarterback rating and CJ Stroud, year before that, 28th. So it’s an interesting thing to think about. Does the quarterback thrive in pressure situations? And it is only one season, right, that we’re looking at here. But I thought it was an interesting correlation in terms of Jaden Daniels, number one. And maybe that’s, again, it’s another metric, but I thought it was something interesting that the Browns might look at when they’re trying to decide who to take.
Terry Pluto (15:54.426)
Now, one thing on that, okay, would be if you’re on a great team and you’re in a lot of blowouts, you may not have big numbers in the fourth quarter. Now you shouldn’t have intercept, but you may not be, because you’re just kind of running the ball. That’s what thinking about CJ’s trial being 28th. You just may not have the overpowering numbers like some others, but Jackson Dart, I don’t think was in that situation.
Hey, we got plenty of time to slice and dice all those stats. Yeah.
David Campbell (16:30.734)
Definitely. All right with the draft coming up next month. All right, so let’s go back to Miles Gary Terry. The Browns agreed to terms with him. He became the highest paid non quarterback in the NFL. The deal runs through 2030. It’s worth 160 million dollars. I don’t have the guaranteed total on here, but it was about 130.
Terry Pluto (16:34.946)
Yes.
Terry Pluto (16:49.238)
the guarantee total what you what you need to do is you need to put them all together because it’s really a six year two hundred ten million dollar contract.
David Campbell (16:57.814)
Right, when you add the two years remaining that he had before, yes.
Terry Pluto (16:59.902)
Right. And of that 123 are guaranteed. And of that, this is a really good thing for miles. Now they’ve been able to, the caffet doesn’t go with that bad because of the way they did it, but he gets a hundred million in the first three years in cash. And I think virtually all of that is guaranteed. And that’s probably what swung it in his direction too.
Cause I loved how I asked him about, you know, his, something like his motivation or whatever, the press conference. And that’s where he gave the first time he went to the, wasn’t about money thing. It was about winning and so on. And I said, but you know, you did come away with a lot of money. I quickly threw a follow-up in there where Pani praised this, agent Nicole Lin for
just coming, making a heck of a deal and that’s her job to get the best deal possible. So, okay. goes back to what we’ve been talking about for weeks, for weeks. He wanted both highest contract and he wanted a winner. And the Andy realized the Browns weren’t going to budge. And I don’t think he wanted to go through the agony of holding out and all that stuff. And so, you know, a hundred million over the first three years.
Maybe they’ll get it right. You know how you could talk yourself in. Or also sometimes we all just make a pragmatic business decision.
David Campbell (18:31.438)
So you’ve been from day one when this all went down and you’re like, follow the money. That was kind of your, your motto is this whole saga played out. Did you feel any differently about miles after the press conference when you heard him talk about it? And I guess the second part of my question is, Terry, how do you think Browns fans should feel about miles Garrett, because he tried to work the system a little bit, went on that media tour at super bowl week where he was talking to everybody and trying to make the, to cast the Browns in a bad light. So they trade him. And then it all was.
Terry Pluto (18:36.962)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (18:57.378)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (19:01.378)
Resolved and now he’s got a new deal, but did that change anything? So I guess that did you change your opinion and how do you think fans should feel after all this?
Terry Pluto (19:08.812)
Well, say that I’ll give miles credit for being miles at the press conference, which is kind of contradictory and a little bit stream of consciousness all over the place. But I’m sure he was prepped with this is a way to the fans back. And he just didn’t care. You know, he and you know, his thing is my game will speak for itself and it probably will. But in terms of high felt, not particularly alarmed or anything by that.
because I just assumed that’s where he was coming from. That’s where most guys are coming from. I mean, other than Jose Ramirez, I mean, think of a big time guy. I’m sure there’s somebody else, but at least locally where it really wasn’t about money. It wasn’t. It was about, I want to stay in Cleveland and you got to give me a no trade clause. So the first two years of my contract, cause after that he’s a 10 five guy. So they couldn’t have traded them anyway. But so you can’t turn around and trade me if I’m going to take this cheap contract. That was it.
And leave me alone. I mean, really, that’s it. Let me play ball. I don’t want to do press conferences. I don’t want to do this. Let me play ball. And once in a while, I get some people say, well, you know, he doesn’t do talks to Andre not. And maybe once in a while, I mean, I’ve tried to get interviews with him and, um, he just doesn’t feel like do it. It’s not personal. He just doesn’t want to do it. And my view is I don’t care. He plays hard all the time. He’s there all the time. Um, he wants to stay here.
Part of the reason he wants to stay here is that he’s not forced to be in the media spotlight. He can just play ball and more love him for that. Runs hard on everything. he and Hedges and a couple others run the clubhouse. The guardians don’t have the drama. All that. And you don’t even need to bring out cupcakes and little dinosaurs to get him to resign.
That was at Miles’s first conferences.
David Campbell (21:05.45)
So, all right, so should the fans just kind of let this roll away and.
Terry Pluto (21:10.988)
I mean, it’s up to the fans to feel however they like, but in the end, you know, at one o’clock on Sunday, usually pretty happy Miles is there. Miles has missed four games in the last five years. That’s it. Four games.
David Campbell (21:27.49)
Yeah, and think by the time we get to the season opener, I think it’ll be a long lost memory and fans will just kind of roll with it.
Terry Pluto (21:32.206)
And what I don’t want to hear is, well, Miles played last year in year three and 14. You know, this is not the argument of trading or getting rid of a really great player. And he is, it’s not that we lost with them. The argument is we need more great players like him because it’s just so dumb. I, I mean, in a first person to say that to me, I was a young baseball writer was Gabe Paul. I had just come.
back to Cleveland from my time in the basically the journalism minors and then when you’re in Baltimore to the plain dealer and they had traded I think the year before Buddy Bell for Toby Harrah and Toby was pretty good player but you know Buddy you could tell was emerging as an all-star and everything winning gold gloves and gay Paul says something to me like well we lost 90 games with Buddy Bell we could lose 90 games without him what
David Campbell (22:29.902)
That was the quote that kind of was the Gabe Paul quote of all time.
Terry Pluto (22:31.768)
There’s a heck of a reason.
Terry Pluto (22:37.514)
Yeah, is another one of those where I came from Baltimore with Hank Peters and Earl Weaver and you know how they were all, you know, data based and the Oriole way and this is how you do it. And you would never hear them say, well, you know, we, we lost, you know, we lost 85 games or whatever with Jim Palmer. So we can, we can lose 85 without him. I mean, it’s stupid. I mean, just
David Campbell (23:03.918)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (23:06.208)
And I know it’s a throwaway line. It’s just like, I really don’t like the argument for almost any move saying, well, you need to play this guy because can it get any worse? I got news for you. It could always get worse. The question is, does he help your odds of getting it getting better? Not just I’m sick of the other guy, so it can’t possibly get worse. It can get worse. As bad as Deshaun Watson was, DTR was worse.
David Campbell (23:21.256)
yeah.
David Campbell (23:38.062)
All right, we do have a quarterback question here from longtime listener Terry Ramey from Burlington, North Carolina.
Terry Pluto (23:40.59)
You
Terry says, know, they’ve, no he doesn’t. Terry’s smarter than Gabe Paul. He never would have made a comment like that.
David Campbell (23:48.366)
That’s right. You better believe it. He says, Hey, Terry and Dave seems like things are quieting down for the Browns right now with signing Garrett to an extension and Atlanta picking up Kirk Cousins bonus. I started looking at backup QBs on other teams with some potential. How about Malik Willis with Green Bay or Joe Milton with the Patriots? They look to have some potential and decent arms and working with Stefanski could actually help them. I’m thinking of maybe a trade with either Martin Emerson or Greg Newsome. Would that be enough? Maybe sign Flacco.
for a season vet. What do you guys think?
Terry Pluto (24:22.306)
Well, I’ll tell you, they could get either one of those guys for Emerson.
David Campbell (24:26.083)
yeah, I would say so.
Terry Pluto (24:27.334)
Easy. I would not trade him for one of those guys. Actually, I know he didn’t have as good a year, wasn’t as productive this past year as before, I, know, cornerbacks are kind of like pitchers in baseball. You want to have a whole bunch of them with talent because they tend to get hurt. And you know, you’re sometimes playing five and you know, corner, I always say cornerback slash safeties. I throw them the, by the way, did you know that Juan Thornhill, what had a, elite
You’re as a safety. I didn’t know that. Do see that that tweet when he signed with the Steelers?
David Campbell (24:59.693)
Yeah.
The Browns can lose 14 games with Juan Thornhill and can lose 14 games without him.
Terry Pluto (25:06.318)
Actually, it might apply to want Thornhill. It doesn’t apply to Miles Garrett. I would, but you know, new, new some something like that. I neither one of those guys excite me, but I have to plead that I’ve not done homework on those guys either.
David Campbell (25:10.37)
Yeah, yeah.
David Campbell (25:25.558)
Yeah, is, you know, so Deshaun Watson was the biggest disappointment for the Browns offense last year. think Martin Emerson was the biggest disappointment for the defense and had the biggest drop off. So I don’t know what his trade value would be. I guess what I would say in response to Terry’s question is I think you can get somebody as good as Joe Milton or Malik Willis in the draft or you know what saying? Like those guys aren’t going to move the needle for you. So why give up a position, a player at a position of strength?
Terry Pluto (25:33.438)
Absolutely.
David Campbell (25:54.776)
that you have to get one of them. think, what do they call it in baseball, Petrary, the wins above replacement? I think the wins above replacement for Malik Willis or Joe Milton would be the same as somebody they might draft in the third round or something.
Terry Pluto (25:59.64)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (26:07.502)
By the way, I was Trevor Bauer. never thought I’d be quoting him once said I’m at war with pitch counts because he didn’t like that. The pitch counts. I’m at low. I’m at war with war. I do not understand winds above replacement. I’ve had it explained to me. And then I look at it. Well, he’s 1.8. This other guy’s 1.4. So he’s considerably better. I’m like, whatever. Uh, but to your point, you know,
David Campbell (26:20.12)
you
Terry Pluto (26:37.344)
is, are either of those guys any better in Kenny Pickett?
I mean, actually Pickett does have, he’s got 15 wins next to his name and maybe Savansky can do something with him.
David Campbell (26:41.987)
Yeah.
David Campbell (26:56.012)
We shall see. Anyway, thanks for that question, Terry. do, you know, and Winsor-Burton replacement, pretty cool stat. I like it. I think it’s interesting. So, all right. Hey, how about we take a break here, Terry? When we come back, we’re going to get into some Cavs and some Guardians. And I want to ask you, would you be batting Jose Ramirez at the number two spot or the number three spot for most of the 2025 season? We’ll get into that and more when we return. Terry’s talking.
Terry Pluto (26:57.166)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (27:04.501)
You would, you’re younger.
Terry Pluto (27:24.504)
But you know, everybody must stay tuned because you can’t say, I could go to some other podcasts because there’s no way it could be any worse than what I’m listening to now.
David Campbell (27:32.942)
that’s right it can always get worse all right we’ll be we’ll be right back
Terry Pluto (27:36.524)
It can always get worse.
David Campbell (28:00.172)
Hey, we’re back on Terry’s Talking. Terry, I can’t believe it’s coming up so fast, but you have an appearance we should mention real quick. It’s a week from tomorrow on March 26th. Wednesday, March 26th. Go ahead, take it away.
Terry Pluto (28:10.694)
Yes. Yeah. Uh, walls of books and Parma town 6 PM to seven or something like at least start at six Parma town. old, where I grew up in Parma and Westminster drive just down. used to walk to Parma town when I was a kid. Walls of books wasn’t there now there then, but it is now. And we want to support the local bookstore. So come out and say hello. And you may want to get there a little early because I’ve done a couple there and, uh, it fills up. mean, we had to really kind of.
I’ll look it all over for chairs and things like that. So the price is right. If you don’t like it, double your money back out the door.
David Campbell (28:45.518)
That’s right. Okay, so Cavs 56 and 11. Terry, it is possible Scott Patsco, who we work with, has brought up the point that it is possible that the Cavs could lose as many or fewer games in the Browns did last season at 56 and 11. But the Cavs had their win streak snapped on Sunday against the Orlando Magic. And did you learn anything from that? Did the Magic teach us anything about the Cavs?
Terry Pluto (28:49.975)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (29:00.172)
Wow.
David Campbell (29:13.846)
and what might be their Achilles heel in the playoffs Sunday or was it just yeah when Mobley not playing no big deal which one?
Terry Pluto (29:16.46)
I mean, Mowgli didn’t play, but I’ll tell you, see, remember last year I picked the Cavs to win in seven over Orlando. I had a lot of respect for Orlando, the way Mowgli coaches, the way they play. And they’re a tough team. know, the problem, they’ve just had enormous injuries, but Van Carrow and Wagner, of course the other Wagner brothers out, Suggs is out. They’re just tough minded. And if you’re a little off or whatever, they’re going to make you.
make you pay. By the way, I saw this somewhere. Phil Jackson had a theory that if you win 40 games before you win 20, there’s some high percentage that you will go to the finals, like 80 some percent or something like that.
David Campbell (30:06.053)
if you win 40 games before you lose 20. Got it, okay.
Terry Pluto (30:08.142)
Yeah, 40 before 20, the 40-20 rule.
Terry Pluto (30:14.922)
He, I think he felt the reason I think he said that is because sometimes the last 20 games, especially if you’re rolling, you know, you’re resting guys and that kind of stuff. But in his case, I guess every single time his teams did that, they went to the finals. Of he has so many teams go to the finals. There’s probably some other stats too, but I, I thought about that. So that means you’re winning two out of every three games. And, yeah, I could, I could see that.
David Campbell (30:44.898)
Did the thing about the magic is they’re so physical as you talked about. you concerned at all about the calves? I you were mentioned a little bit, but it was a, it was a battle last year. I mean, it was really physical. Do you think this calves team is tough enough to deal with teams like that? And I think we’ve seen a little bit from, you know, Memphis plays a little bit like that, but if they run into somebody who just wants to goon it up, like is it’s just a team that can handle that. You think so?
Terry Pluto (30:50.593)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (30:55.916)
Yeah. no, it was.
Terry Pluto (31:08.293)
Mm-hmm Houston Yeah Yeah, yeah, he’s Houston to they had trouble with Houston. We haven’t seen them for a while. Fortunately. Those teams are all in the West I mean one of the things that hurt them in the Magic series was that Jared Allen who was averaging 17 rebounds a game or something like that 16 the first four games had two broken ribs Remember the rib bruises. I was just
War I was at war with that to police the man’s got broken ribs and Then it’s like cuz everybody thinks cuz Jerry’s always smiling with the afro and he made the you know The kind of happy guy and he made the comment a couple years ago about the waste too bright He was a warrior in that series and I don’t think it would have gone He was built for that and I’ve seen him in some of these other games Where it got kind of physical and there he goes in there gets rebounds. So that’s gonna help
You you want to see how with Deandre Hunter they are in those type games. And I know though, like I said, they’re Orlando one. I mean, look, I’m, you know, I’m bullish on the Cavs. I’ve had several people ask me about, well, don’t you think, you know, they’ll beat Boston and go to the finals. And I said, well, is Porzingis playing? I think that’s a key part of this. Cause most of the time when they play Boston, they’ve not had Porzingis.
Porzingis brings a different element is seven foot two. He’s not super physical, but he’s tall and he could block the way and he makes the threes and it’s just an I mean, would you rather face Porzingis or, you know, a cornet, you know, Porzingis and the Horford are really good big man combination that they don’t play them both at the same time, but that run them in and out. I mean, Horford’s like 37 years old or something that guys still play. And so we’ll see, but.
I’m excited by what I see. Interesting, the way, Ty Jerome’s never been in a playoff game. How about that? I think he’ll play well, but he hasn’t. Meanwhile, Hunter in the playoffs, he’s averaged 16 plus, say 16 points, shot like 48 % and 38 on threes and six rebounds. His stats, if anything, go up in the playoffs.
Terry Pluto (33:27.194)
And that’s, so that’s, that’s done something to look forward to. Meanwhile, you know, you look at the play out. These are things, by the way, I know internally, the counts are discussing, how much do you play O’Coro in the playoffs? You know, because we’ve seen where he’s kind of just ended up standing in the corner, you know, shooting 25 % on threes, you know, obviously you like them defensively or Merrill, how much do you play him? He seems to run hot and cold, you know,
The Cavs, and I agree with them on this, they don’t consider Merrill being purely one dimensional. They like how he does kind of, he’s scrappy on defense and helps, but you know, he’s got to make some shots. JB would back away from Merrill quite a bit.
Here’s a problem how coaches think in the playoffs. Suppose they go to a coral Merrill. They got like three or four bench guys out there at same time. And it’s a four minute span and I get outscored 12 to three. They will be second guessing themselves. Why did I go to so many subs? What they won’t do is where they leave the starters out there for too long in a four minute span and where they normally would sub in multiple guys. Maybe they only sub in one.
and they get outscored 12 to three. They won’t second guess themselves on that. Cause it’s like dance with whom you know, who brought you where I say, I know there’s time off between games and the playoffs, but they’re also so intense that these guys do get worn down.
David Campbell (35:45.792)
And you were talking about a Coro earlier, Terry. I felt like in the last couple of seasons, there were games where the Cavs were depending on him to either make three pointers or they were in big trouble. And I don’t think that’s the case this year. I think they’ve got a lot more places to go. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (35:48.493)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (35:56.394)
Yeah. Well, they were, yeah, they’re left wide open. Yes. And I think that’s it. But, and you could also go with the fact that, all right, just for four minutes, go in there and get on whoever it is, you know, get on Jaylen Brown or whatever, just go get them. And we don’t care what you do. I know the calves are trying to get Okoro to go to the rim more. and
see if that, you know, that Dean Wade was a guy that I was trying to think of that Dean way can play in the playoffs because he’s got length. And even if, he, Struggles some with his shot, plus minuses with Dean Wade on the floor are really high. So I would put your top three subs would be Wade Hunter and tight tie. and then you’d go, how much do I play? coral. How much do I play Merrill? and
Because remember Kenny Atkinson, I mean, took the vowel. I’m playing 10 to 11 a night and he has kept it. But can you do that in the playoffs? There’s a, and I know they’re, they’re running all kinds of scenarios and they’re looking at all the past and all kinds of things to try and figure out. Cause they’d like to play more guys, but the instinct is don’t.
David Campbell (37:16.236)
And the matchups will determine a lot of this, right? Like who’s matching up against who, what the opponent is and all that. So one thing I want to mention, Terry, and you’ve been writing about, think Memphis and Golden State are the only teams that have played their bench more than the Cavs this year, which is, know, physical minutes reducing. I also think the Cavs have done, or it seems like they’re doing more of this, where they’re taking breaks during the season. And last week they went to Nashville for a few days and hung out at.
Terry Pluto (37:22.371)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (37:30.296)
Yep.
David Campbell (37:43.138)
Vanderbilt and Darius Garland was showing them around Vanderbilt and they were playing football and Chris Futer, our colleague, did a really nice kind of inside look at what that time in Nashville was like. And it was just kind of nice weather and a chance to get away from home, you know, and not have to be worried about getting to the gym at a certain time.
Terry Pluto (37:45.848)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (37:58.646)
Yeah. When I saw them playing touch football and go, don’t step on somebody’s ankle or something. That was, you know, you do that. I mean, just to show how it was so different because when I covered the calves along with Bert Grafe and Joe Menzer, we were the three beat guys back in the Lonnie Wilkins era. And Joe was with the news Harold. I was with the beacon journal and Bert was at the PD. And so there were times after practice.
Or say after a shoot around on the road practice on the road, rather, when, the, guys at the end of the bench, you know, guys, 10, 11, and 12 wanted to run full court. And so they would kind of have some trainers playing and we would play full court with them. did that three or four times. I mean, it would never do not. mean, you knew you got to stay out of the way or whatever. So I was in the same back court once with Derek Cheavis and another time with Steve Kerr. I brought the ball up.
And I was supposed to kind of pass it and get out of the way. And I was glad to do that. But the point is, if they would never do it now, know, know, a clumsy sports story to get in there and, you know, ends up guys, ends up with a torn Achilles. Can you imagine that? So, but it, but I have to admit that memory came back when I saw the guys playing touch football. Unfortunately, nothing, you know, transpired from there. But
David Campbell (39:14.082)
Man.
Terry Pluto (39:25.336)
That was not nice for Garland. Garland grew up in Nashville, did he not? Right in the area there. Yeah, he did.
David Campbell (39:30.1)
Yeah, yeah. It’s funny, like, talking about how much things have changed. My first job out of school, I think I’ve told you this, Terry, was in Streeter, Illinois, which is Doug Deacon’s hometown. And I was there for about a year and a half. the Bears used to, the Chicago Bears used to go on like barnstorming tours where they would go and drive around to drum up support downstate. And they brought like 10 players to Streeter, Illinois one night to play in a quote unquote celebrity basketball game against a bunch of like
Terry Pluto (39:38.882)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
David Campbell (39:59.806)
local small town and I was one of the celebrities. So I’m out there yeah like I’m out there playing basketball against Chicago Bears second and third string guys and I remember you know standing in the lane and all of a sudden Ron Morris this wide receiver just no no I was waiting for a rebound to come down and all of a sudden like this giant 40 foot condor was swooping over my head and he just took this rebound right out of the air over my head.
Terry Pluto (40:02.366)
Yeah, that was it. mean the brown. Yeah, the brown. Browns did that too, yeah.
Terry Pluto (40:14.858)
And you dunked on him.
Terry Pluto (40:21.41)
Yeah.
David Campbell (40:25.996)
But like that would never have like when would that ever happen now? It would never happen.
Terry Pluto (40:26.13)
That’s... No, no, no, they’re always worried about that stuff and...
David Campbell (40:32.238)
Yeah, which I totally get, but it’s just so weird to think about it. It wasn’t that long ago when they were doing that kind of stuff. So basketball with sports writers and it was a thing, I guess. So all right, so we do have a quick letter here. It’s kind of an interesting question from Jack and Erie. Jack’s a long time listener. says, hey, Terry and David, I’ve never seen backlash like this. Terry, can you compare the Mavericks trading Luca to the Indians trading Rocky Cala Vito back in the day?
Terry Pluto (40:35.246)
Mmm.
Terry Pluto (40:59.086)
I like it. I didn’t think about it, but I like it. Why are you trading a guy in his prime who loves the community, fan favorite? Yes, he has some injury history. And yes, he could probably dump 15 pounds, but he almost averages a triple double. And you trade him for a guy with bad knees. And why, if you were going to trade him,
Would you only talk to the Lakers? Remember they kept it quiet. I mean, that is like, okay, you run the Luka auction. And then of course, everything naturally goes wrong after that. You know, on top of Riz, now Kyrie’s done for the year too. He got an ACL, I believe. So you, you’re correct. That’s to bounce back from that. That really hurts your trade value. And then on top of that, you know, Mark Cuban no longer, I think he’s.
and he’s certainly no longer the majority owner and he might be totally out of it. He created, goes, I never would have made that trade. It’s a nightmare. It’s a pure nightmare.
David Campbell (42:07.896)
Yeah, that doesn’t help.
I don’t know if you saw this too, Terry, but last week Southwest Airlines announced that they are no longer going to let bags fly free. And there was a huge uproar. It’s like, that’s all you’re known for. Southwest is bags fly free. That’s why people like to fly you. And so Southwest Airlines tweeted out, hey, it’s not like we traded Luka. That was their social media response. So that’s how bad it is that even Southwest Airlines is using the Luka trade to cover their tracks.
Terry Pluto (42:18.753)
Okay.
Terry Pluto (42:24.0)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (42:37.88)
Cause I mean, top of that Dallas made a heck of a deal cause they, I believe they traded with Atlanta and they went from like five to three and I landed up taking the trade, with that, but they, it’s like you scout this guy, you target this guy, you trade up to get the guy and he’s the guy you thought you got and you trade them for an older big man with
You know, in Anthony Davis with if he needs. Can’t stand the four and, it was just bizarre. Can you imagine if they had to put him on the market, what they could have got? They’ve got a guy like Davis and a bunch of number ones and everything else. Well, think about, by the way, think about what Utah got from the calves. Three number ones, Maury Markkinen, who’s made an all-star team.
David Campbell (43:09.486)
can’t stay on the floor.
David Campbell (43:25.73)
Yep, gotta be one of the worst trades in sports history.
Terry Pluto (43:37.006)
And a couple the Colin section decent guy off the bench Abashi who by the way, I believe is not try starting for Toronto You know, it was a it was it was exactly what you you should get now It hasn’t helped you tell like they thought it would but in terms of a haul as Opposed to just Anthony Davis and I there was some marginal stuff in there Yep, rocky Calvita all over again
David Campbell (43:37.624)
Colin Sexton, right?
David Campbell (44:05.132)
Yep.
Terry Pluto (44:05.39)
I remember the headline in the playing dealer was something like 40 homers for 140 singles because Harvey Keane was the guy they got. I think he had won the batting title. It was a classic. You know, he won the batting title. Rocky won the home run title, but it’s like Harvey had 142 singles or something like that. And he was a couple of years older and kind of not his body was not in great shape either. talking about Keane and
Yeah, I’m more out. That’s a day. That’s a five star. That’s a five star email there
David Campbell (44:40.3)
Yeah, thanks for that Jack. Always great to hear from you and hope things are good in Erie. I might actually be heading to Erie soon to see the Erie Otters play, so I’ll let you know if I head over there, Terry. OK, so Cavs tonight. Tuesday night they’re playing the Clippers out West to start a five game swing out there. They got the Kings tomorrow night on Wednesday at 10 o’clock. We’re playing at the Suns on Friday at 10 o’clock and then Sundays afternoon game at Utah 330 and then next Tuesday they wrap up the trip at Portland. And that one’s also at 10 o’clock, so a lot of late night basketball.
Hey, while we’re on basketball third, do want to talk about the Akron Zips, the champions of the Mid-American Conference?
Terry Pluto (45:13.356)
Yeah, how about that? I’m watching the game Saturday and you know, I, I pull for all the big three here for me, Cleveland state, Akron and Kent. I want them always to do well in basketball. want them always to be good in basketball, which by the way, they have been for years at the same time. I wish they were in the same conference, but you know, Cleveland state doesn’t play football. So the Mac doesn’t want them anyway.
So it’s 34 to 16, middle of the first half. And you know, have the two brothers, Travis Steele, the coach of Miami, half brother, John Grosz, coach of Akron. And I’m watching, and Miami, who can get hot on their three pointers, they’re making them from, you know, Kelly’s Island. I mean, those balls are going in. And Akron was struggling. And I’m thinking, uh-oh, you know, you’re in really big trouble here.
And you know what they did, especially the second half, think they held Miami to 26 or 28 points. They, they took over the rebounding and they beat them up because this Akron team was more of a run and gun. were like, we believe 11th in the nation at scoring 85 points a game. And they beat them the old fashioned way. They went after them defensively and they rebounded and, they took them apart. David, they played 21 Mac opponents this year and won 20 of those games.
And you know, winning the regular season doesn’t really help you a lot. Sometimes this tournament, you know, talk to Toledo. They had a streak recently, not this year, but the previous, think four years where they had won the regular season and didn’t get to the NCAA.
David Campbell (46:53.57)
Well, and we saw what happened with North Carolina getting in. the thing, if it’s a big school and a smaller school, they almost always go with the big school and we don’t want to get any conflicts of interest. But like, I don’t know that accurate. I don’t think I could would have gotten in if they had lost that game. I don’t think there’s any way.
Terry Pluto (46:55.469)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (47:00.95)
Yeah, but but I really
no, they haven’t had a, you had to go back to the late nineties. I had it in that story that I wrote the other day. was Western Michigan and Miami of Ohio. And Miami had Wally words, Wally’s a react and the Western Michigan, I forgot who they have, but they had an NBA player on that team. The late nineties, the last time they had got at large bids. So no, you weren’t going. There wasn’t, there was like no way. And so that.
Was a fact that was one of the reasons when Keith Dan brought, went to Duquesne was he’d become frustrated with it. Didn’t matter if I won 27 games or whatever. We weren’t getting picked. And then somehow along the way, the Mac had just become a tournament, pariah in terms of, for a, at large bid, but John gross, how about this? Three of the last four years he’s taken the zips.
to the NCAA tournament. He did it twice at Ohio, did once at Illinois too. It’s an interesting thing. Do you think someone will come after John Gross?
David Campbell (48:15.566)
That’s a good question. And we’ve seen coaches go into a tournament and win three games and all of sudden they’re leaving. So you never know. I think the tournament will go long way toward determining that.
Terry Pluto (48:21.4)
Mm-hmm.
Now I was trying to see last time Akron excuse me. Well Akron’s never won a NCAA game But the last time a Mac team did Buffalo did like an 18 or 19 Nate oath who’s the coach at Alabama? He he won a NCAA game By the way, when did Seattle become the East Regional?
David Campbell (48:48.462)
Good question. That’s where the Zips will be playing. They’re taking on Arizona on Friday out in Seattle. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (48:53.654)
It’s the East Regional, David. No, you have to explain this to me. You have a title as a sports manager at cleveland.com.
David Campbell (48:58.36)
All right. So here’s what’s happening. So they used to make it where if you played in the West Regional, the first two rounds, if you were at school in Boston, you would get sent out to California to play in the West Regional. And it reminds me of when I was playing hockey, we would go to a tournament up in Michigan and we’d end up playing like a Cleveland team in the championship. Right? It’s like we drove all the way to Detroit to play a team we could have, you know, was 10 miles from where we were.
And I think what the NCAA has done is they’re like, going to, don’t care what region you’re in. We’re going to try and group the teams more geographically if we can. So I think it’s been better, but it, it works if you’re Michigan state coming to Cleveland this week and it works if you’re, if you’re, if you’re Illinois going to Milwaukee, but like, once again, the Mac team gets sent out west to Seattle to play a West coast team. And sometimes it were, I think it’s better than it used to be in terms of not making teams fly all over creation, but it’s still not great.
Terry Pluto (49:31.481)
well that works.
No, but it doesn’t work if you’re...
Terry Pluto (49:50.882)
Well, they’d have sent him to Singapore if they could.
David Campbell (49:53.57)
Yeah, so when you get into seedings and last teams in and bubbles and all that, sometimes you got Arizona playing Akron in Seattle. It just is the way it goes, I guess.
Terry Pluto (50:00.236)
Now I have to be fair and say that last year, cause I went to the game, Akron drew Creighton and they played it at Pittsburgh. So that was, it did work. Yeah. But why are they calling it the East? Why don’t they just call it the way West something?
David Campbell (50:09.346)
Yeah, so there’s an example of where it worked, guess, right? Yeah.
David Campbell (50:17.954)
Well, because the winner of that is going to feed into the East. So again, if you make all the Eastern region teams play in the East, you might have two West Coast teams traveling to New York to play each other, like the hockey example.
Terry Pluto (50:27.918)
just don’t call it. I’m sorry. It’s in Seattle. Call it that. Call it the, I don’t know the what.
David Campbell (50:34.434)
Yeah, deceased see a combination of Seattle and East. They could call it that so. Alright, let’s talk some baseball Terry. Are you worried about the Guardians lineup right now? How come?
Terry Pluto (50:38.956)
That’s right, the seat deceased. Okay, enough of that. I’m done. All right.
Terry Pluto (50:47.617)
Yes.
Well...
Terry Pluto (50:54.67)
I thought that way they might find a second baseman who certainly will never be anything like him and as in the field, but maybe he could produce the 260 batting average and 740 or 720 OPS and double figure home runs. I don’t see it. Arias right now Arias has got the job because one breed will sit in 130 and
I’d help Martinez one 33 and areas is two 29. mean, see it worries me a little bit in spring. You can say spring training. I don’t care that, you know, Carlos Santana sitting one 10 or whatever it is in spring training. It doesn’t matter. Uh, but I do care when guys trying to make the team are not hitting out there because it’s just going to get tougher when the regular season starts. So you, you don’t have that.
Secondly, I’m concerned just a little bit about.
I know Big Christmas has hit in 282, but he has struck out 16 times in 39 at bats with zero walks. That is not a good ratio again for spring training where they’re not really working that hard on how to get people out. know, pitchers are trying to get there. By the way, Tanner Bybee, I watched the game on the net, looked terrific. Just looked terrific. You know, now.
Manzardo’s hitting 368, he’s hit three homers. But I just, I was just hoping some, one of the young hitters, and I almost took Manzardo out of that category because I just think he’s good. I just thought somebody else would, would rise up and they have not done so.
David Campbell (52:46.316)
And the thing about the guardians, Terry, if they have pitching problems or somebody goes down hurt, like you always suspect that they’re going to come up with a solution because they have so many arms in the farm system. And that pitching factory is so efficient and so good at what it does. But when, when there’s a hole in the lineup, like they have, it doesn’t work the same way. mean, I guess it can’t, but the position problem, position player problem or a hole in the lineup where nobody’s hitting. It’s really hard to fill that.
Terry Pluto (52:54.316)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (53:15.038)
them and I think you’re right if they and so I kind of tease this a little bit but is this part of the reason why they’re considering moving Jose up to number two in the lineup and do think that’s a bad idea or a good idea in terms of so Paul Hoynes had a really interesting story on this I think it was yesterday about do want me to run through the stats real quick okay so
Terry Pluto (53:15.885)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (53:26.669)
Yeah.
David Campbell (53:39.406)
The Guardian’s data shows that if you bat number two in the lineup instead of number three, you get about 30 more plate appearances during the season. Again, this is all from Williams' story, which I thought was interesting, right? So, when Jose has, last season when Jose batted number two, he only did it six times. He batted 250 with one homer and five ribbies. When he was number three in the lineup where he spent most of his time, obviously, he hit 280 last season, 38 homers, 113 RBIs. So.
He produces more, well he produced more last season in the third spot than the second spot. And then Hoynes, had these stats too in his career. Jose is a 285 hitter with 184 homers in the third spot and hitting second, he’s 258 with 21 homers and 75 rebs. So basically number three for his career, he’s a 285 hitter at the number three spot and he’s betting 258 at number two. So.
That tells you he’s better at number three, but like who goes to number two then? It’s a really tricky puzzle to solve. You want him getting more at bats, but who else is gonna slide in there, right?
Terry Pluto (54:42.797)
Yes,
Terry Pluto (54:46.126)
My people down at Goodyear, and again, I was not able to go to spring training second year in a row. This time my mom, Mel, she passed away on Sunday, so we had to change that trip. But I have talked to some people down there and they said they’re probably going to go with Jose Batty number two. The analytics department’s been pushing for this.
dating back to when Manny Atka was the manager there. Now, Francona, that was back when they won it. Obviously, Jose was not around then, but they put, at that point, Asdrubal-Cabrera was one of their better hitters, and they batted him second because of that. And I think, I wanna say Manny told me it was like 45 more at best, but it doesn’t matter. It’s more. I remember Francona telling me,
that he talked to Jose and Jose said he preferred to bat third. And since Jose prefers to do so little, when it’s something like that, he wants to bat third, fine with me, I’ll work around it. It’s just like when Jose got to be a really good player, like around 2017 or 18, because 2016, he played a little second, he played some third and he played the outfield.
And what he, and, the year before that he’d even played shortstop. So he went in one day, I’m sorry, Frank Kona went to Jose one day they were talking, you know, what, what do you like? What would you like to do? And he said, just pick a position for me. I’m tired of moving. It’s hard on me. And you know, when Jose doesn’t, we’ve talked about, don’t complain about anything. Fine. You’re the third basement, you know, and that’s going to be as hollow of any position. Well.
Now, supposedly Jose is open to batting second, which he hadn’t been in the past because he liked third. And I think he’s probably a traditionalist like most of us. know, third was a prime lineup spot. And, but if you bat him third, all right. So you go with, I guess one thought is this. If you have him batting second, you’re batting behind Kwon. Kwon gets on base. Kwon’s actually not a big base dealer.
Terry Pluto (57:09.228)
So he’s on first. So that probably will not lead to a lot of walks for Jose intentional walks. If you bat them third, then who do you, as you said, then who do you bat second? What? mean, Wayne Thomas? I don’t know.
David Campbell (57:25.634)
Yeah, I mean, I that’s what they’ve been doing is like it’s been Lane Thomas behind Jose or Jose behind Lane Thomas, depending on where Jose is slotted in. So.
Terry Pluto (57:27.448)
Yeah? Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so that’s what they’re looking at, but just wanted to some background on that. You know, have Manzardo, it’s gonna bat in the middle of the lineup, and you have Santana.
So I don’t know how they’re going. By the way, and I was, I was sort of down on Neyler, not Bill Neyler, Josh Neyler talking about now by the end of the season, cause he was heavy and all that. You know what he’s doing in the spring in Arizona, spring training, but 471, 16 for 34 with a homer. So I figured, wow, see what Andres is doing. And he’s hitting 278.
David Campbell (58:02.572)
No, tell me. Really?
Terry Pluto (58:16.247)
So he’s having a decent spring. So we’ll see how Josh Naylor plays. mean, he has every motivation to be in shape and play well because he’s in the last year of his contract.
David Campbell (58:34.69)
All right. So Terry, know the MLB has been trying this thing. They’re calling them what? Spring breakout games, right? And they’re kind of telling teams, hey, we want to broadcast this game. Let’s load up both teams with prospects so that fans can see the future of the game. And some of these young stars that maybe are on the cusp of making it big. And you found a picture that you really kind of attached to. Why don’t you talk about that real quick.
Terry Pluto (58:43.242)
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (58:57.91)
I had heard of Parker Messick, you know, he’s a, a second round pick. boy, help me get this right. It’s either Ford or Florida State. I believe it’s Florida State, but anyway, yeah, he was ACC pitcher of the year. I always liked those kinds of profiles anyway. They tend to come fast. Those guys I love. I love college pitchers pick tie. I hate high school pitchers pick tie because high school pitchers probably are going to have to have Tommy John surgery. I mean, just the way it rolls.
David Campbell (59:06.392)
Florida State.
Terry Pluto (59:23.244)
So he was fun to watch pitch against Seattle’s top prospects. I love that game. They should have a couple of those a year because I know one of the things that is when you watch a spring training game, you see Travis Buzana get one at bad or two or some of these other guys here, these guys are playing just about the whole game, the key players. And you just got to see them against the top prospects for the other thing. And it’s different. It’s fun. Messick was really good. and.
You left handed, thrown middle nineties, which is velocities up, seemed to really have good control of the strike zone. he, he, he, he’s got a chance to come fast and they may need him because when you look at this, I mean, big sigh, Travis McKenzie, 11 innings, 15 hits, five walks, three homers.
You know, it’s just really disconcerting. Now Ortiz, I believe is pitching today. Be nice if he showed up, 10 and two thirds innings, 16 hits, three homers. I mean, you just, I know it’s spring training and that, but see, this is where these guys still have to prove themselves. know, Mackenzie’s got to prove he’s healthy. Ortiz is still trying to establish himself as a starter. So right now, Dave Campbell, I got three starters.
I have written in ink, right in front of me scribbles in my notebook. And your three starters, who would they be?
David Campbell (01:00:58.686)
Well, I’m going to say Tanner Bybee starts on opening day. Ben Lively and Logan Allen.
Terry Pluto (01:01:01.677)
Yeah.
Yes, and one more. Nope, Gavin Williams. Yeah, but Logan Allen, I was gonna bring up, has a 188 this spring, ERA. Now, McKenzie is out of options. If you’re so worried about losing him on waivers, Dr. Campbell, I suggest you put them in the bullpen.
David Campbell (01:01:08.29)
Gavin Williams, okay.
Terry Pluto (01:01:28.482)
See if can straighten them out. Maybe that’ll work. Maybe it won’t work. Meanwhile, you got to find five starters. So if we add Logan Allen, that is four. And then, now they brought, they signed this guy, Colby Howard. Colby, K-O-L-B-Y, Howard. He was a top pick, number 14 overall, by Atlanta in 2015.
He’s bounced around to different teams. Um, last year in AAA was three and nine with a 566 ERA. His major league career 11 and 24 were to 599. He’s 27. He’s had some injury problems. He’s having a very big spring for the guardians. I’ve not seen him pitch, so I can’t go there. Um, but maybe somebody like that ends up being, you know, the fifth star.
I don’t really know, but you would like to put Ortiz in there. My guess is they probably will put him as number four and Logan Allen or Kobe Allard or somebody like that as number five, because they traded for Ortiz with the plant of him starting. He does have a minor league option left, but I don’t think they really want to go down the road of we traded him and as for Ortiz. Basically there was some other stuff involved and
He doesn’t even make the team.
David Campbell (01:03:02.466)
Yeah. And the way they’re working on stuff with him, might not see him get a regular rotation spot till May, probably. So we’ll see how it’s going.
Terry Pluto (01:03:09.038)
Yeah. So, yeah. So hopefully it will, you know, whatever was going on there. Cause the guy had really good stats and, and it was highly regarded. So, you know, you kind of look around at these, these different things in spring training and, um, you can, the bullpen be not just good, but like almost record breaking good, like a year ago. don’t know, but remember I’m the genius who picked them to go 72 and 90 last year.
David Campbell (01:03:39.106)
You were not alone. I was right there with you. So, and a lot of other people as well. So.
Terry Pluto (01:03:40.174)
I was, yeah, well, a lot of people at least around 500, but I was like, was way down there. And, you know, I feared the bullpen. Now they, you know, they were, I forget what they were in run scored in major leagues. I think around 10th, something like that top third.
David Campbell (01:03:58.798)
All right, I think we’re done on the Guardians. Yeah, we are. But we do have more baseball, Terry, to wrap up with. So we actually, you’ve talked about Earl Weaver. On this podcast, we actually got two emails from listeners. One is Yusuf-Rol Brownstein and the other one came from Mark Siwik. Hope I said your last name right, Mark. There’s a new Earl Weaver book out, Terry, and I want to read it. There’s a letter from Mark. He says,
Terry Pluto (01:04:00.878)
Mmm.
Terry Pluto (01:04:09.315)
Yeah.
David Campbell (01:04:25.954)
Hey Terry and David, it’s been a while since I’ve written you two as your Savannah correspondent. See the prior thread below. We go back and forth between our homes in Savannah about six months in each place. In case you haven’t seen it, there’s a new book out on Earl Weaver. The title is The Last Manager, How Earl Weaver Tricked, Tormented, and Reinvented Baseball. And the author is John W. Miller, not the announcer. The book is terrific and it contains a lot of baseball history in general, including the fact that Earl should have had his own MLB career as a second baseman.
Keep up the great work. never miss a podcast and the Cavs, what a joy they are. I agree that they’re so reminiscent of the Lenny Wilkins era. I also love how comfortable Kenny is with the media and it appears that he’s built a great coaching staff as well. My best, Mark Zyrick. Thank you again, Mark. Did you know about this book, Terry?
Terry Pluto (01:05:13.132)
Yeah, I was interviewed for it twice. I don’t, I was actually kind of waiting for a free copy. not that I don’t there, but my policy, when I interview people for a book, I actually send them the book. so I’ve not heard from Miller since then, so I’m probably going to have to go and, buy it. I could tell he was doing an incredibly deep dive in terms of reporting.
David Campbell (01:05:15.463)
OK.
Terry Pluto (01:05:41.93)
and looking at all kinds of things like where he grew up. He grew up in St. Joseph, Missouri, and some other things. So I’m anxious to see it. I know that.
Earl Weaver could be very foul mouth and very rough on people. But that press corps then that covered him back then, which was Dan Shaughnessy, who’s now the baseball hall of fame from, he was at the Washington star back then. I was at the Baltimore Evening Sun. A guy named Peter Pascarelli covered them for the, it’s the story of Baltimore News American, which has gone, Peter went on for years to be top researcher for baseball for ESPN.
and Tom Boswell from the Washington Post, who’s I believe also in the baseball hall of fame. And then the fifth one was a guy named Ken Nigro who was with the Baltimore Morning Sun, I was with the Evening Sun. Earl treated us great. He really did. I mean, he would rip into you if he didn’t like the story, but he held no grudges. And the next day was like the same. so I’m, and I heard, cause he,
Apparently some other people told stories that weren’t quite as flattering or there, but I mean, I’m a, at that point I’ve got that job at the age of 24 and you know, I’m thrown in there with the Orioles. just come up from double ACE of Anna Georgia. I mean, he could have crushed me. He could have killed me. But you know he, instead he tried to do is, and he did what all the writers is kind of recruit them to how he sees the game. You know, he started by showing us the stats of
Different hitters versus pitchers. He had them all written out on index cards How really any other team was doing that? They were just doing straight platooning right versus left He would say things like I hate the hit-and-run play. I’m like why he says here’s what you get the hit-and-run You get the runner stealing looking over his shoulder to see if the guy is swinging and you get the guy swinging at a pitch He probably wouldn’t be swinging at unless the guy was running
Terry Pluto (01:07:52.62)
So you wanna steal the base, steal the base and the hitter can do what he wants. And I’m like, you know, there’s something to that. Another thing he didn’t like is to go out to the mound and tell the pitcher, pitch around this guy. Because it’s kinda like you tell a guy, don’t think of a blue elephant. Don’t think of a blue elephant. What’s he doing? Thinks of a blue elephant. And he would say, you tell these bleeping rock heads, don’t pitch or don’t throw him a strike. He’s gonna throw right down the middle.
David Campbell (01:08:11.841)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:08:21.9)
He would say, have some guts. You want to walk the guy? Walk the guy. It’s on you. You’re the manager. And I’m like, you’re right. And Earl could be annoyingly right. And he was that. Now he and I did do a book together, Earl and I did, called Weaver on Strategy, which a couple of farm systems still buy and use. So now it sounds kind of quaint and antiquated. But the stuff he was doing back then.
really was as he talked about trickery and way ahead of the game. I mean, when you invent the stats of hitters versus pictures and then use it to guide your lineup and nobody else is doing it, it’s such a huge advantage and it was not a big secret. Other teams just weren’t jumping on it. Now it’s just a given.
David Campbell (01:09:09.388)
Yeah, I was watching the air movie last night about the making of the Michael Jordan Nike relationship and you know, Michael Jordan’s mom Dolores like changed the game, the shoe game by demanding that Michael get a percentage of every shoe sold and Earl Weaver was the same way. Like he changed the way baseball was played by some of the stuff that he did. He changed it.
Terry Pluto (01:09:12.142)
Uh-huh.
Terry Pluto (01:09:18.881)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:09:23.832)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:09:28.502)
I mean, you he grew up, he grew up in a family where they like to gamble and play the odds. And I think he was wired that way. And by the way, those guys, boy, do they like to bet on just like whose luggage would come out of the air? Like, I’m telling you bag first. And then they discovered Earl in Baltimore when we flew into Baltimore or Washington was fixing it. He would tell the whole.
David Campbell (01:09:43.086)
Really?
David Campbell (01:09:52.898)
Hahaha!
Terry Pluto (01:09:55.566)
I’d be ready to throw like five or 10 bucks in, you whose bank’s coming out first. I dropped out of that game early. knew that mine was never coming out first. That was back when we were chargers. We flew with the team, but it was, it was really funny, but he loved the odds. And then I think that’s what led him to thinking about that. was started the hit hitters versus pitcher stats was he noticed that Mark Bollander kept getting hits off of Nolan Ryan, which made no sense. Bollander was barely a 200 hitter.
David Campbell (01:09:55.598)
.
David Campbell (01:09:59.512)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:10:26.018)
But for whatever reason, he would hit Nolan Ryan. So he said, well, you just check. so they did a thing like Belanger was something like seven for 18, you know, against Nolan Ryan and about two for a thousand against the rest of the world. So when they played Nolan Ryan, he’d bat him second and everybody thought he was out of his mind. Well, then he said, there’s gotta be more like this. You know, it’s kind of like a guy is walking through a river one day, see something gold, but it can’t be too much picks at it and goes, that’s a nugget.
There I bet there’s more in this river. Let’s go look at, know, get the pan and start panning for gold. And he found it with the different stats, which is why, you know, John Wallenstein, like a career, 12, two 42 hitter in Cleveland. Cause I remember he went over to the Orioles right when I was there that year. He has like two 80 and it was purely data driven and you know, all that kind of, cause he said, we’re doing the platoons wrong. Right. He left. goes, it’s, it’s a pure matchup. can isolate the matchup.
Now this is all again basic right now, but this is like Moses with the stone tablets. mean, this is like never been seen before.
David Campbell (01:11:32.398)
So wait, gotta go, he would like tip the baggage handlers to make sure that the right bag came out so he would win the bet? That’s the best, that is the best. I wonder if that made the book. I wonder if that made the book, we’ll to see.
Terry Pluto (01:11:39.116)
That was, that was it. He was winning too much.
Terry Pluto (01:11:45.198)
It was just well, you I don’t know. I think I did tell Millers I told him a bunch of the stuff like that. I don’t know what to use.
David Campbell (01:11:54.546)
Alright, I think we’re done here.
Terry Pluto (01:11:56.683)
Alright.
David Campbell (01:11:57.902)
Cool. So again, do not forget, send us your opening day stories from baseball years gone by. Send that to sports at cleveland.com. We will be back. We’ll see you next time on Terry’s Talkin' and maybe the Browns will have a new quarterback by then. We’ll see you then.